The FrogPad

Roastmaster Support => Wish List => Topic started by: mini_eigi on December 09, 2014, 10:51:48 AM

Title: ROR Curve
Post by: mini_eigi on December 09, 2014, 10:51:48 AM
I really love the app and  the fact that it improved a lot since I started to use it about a year ago.
I don't know if you know the book "the coffee roasters companion". I learned a lot from this book and think the commandments he gives are really useful.
One commandment says that the ROR (rate of rise) should constantly sink during the roast. It would be helpful to switch on an automated ROR curve.
An other helpful thing would be to see the percentage of the onset of the first crack compared to the total roast time.
Vor example the first crack started after 75% of the total roast time.
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: Danny Hall on December 09, 2014, 03:01:29 PM
Glad to hear you're enjoying it.

Delta Curves (RoR curves) were actually one of the new features in the update released about a week ago. On iPad, tap the << button in the analyzer to show the controls dock, and tap the button with the triangle on it to toggle them on and off for reading curves.

On iPhone, there's no room for a dedicated button, but you can enable them in Preferences.

I agree about percentages in crack times. I've talked to a number of users the information displayed for cracks. Seems everyone likes to see different things there. What I may end up doing is adding a couple of preferences. Or, since percentages wouldn't really be applicable for a current roast, just display them in past roasts where screen real estate isn't quite as critical as a current roast.

Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: RoastedOnRoss on September 14, 2015, 03:02:53 PM
Funny - I was just reading this book over the weekend, saw the same "commandment" and thought, "Hmm...I wonder if RM has Rate of Rise curves...?" - Good thing I checked the forums first! :)

I actually did see the delta curves last night when I was poking around on my roasts from last week, and I thought that was RoR, so I'm happy to have it confirmed.

Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: Danny Hall on September 15, 2015, 01:51:32 AM
Yep - that's Roastmaster's version of RoR curves. They'll be little more flexible in the coming update, with respect to enabling them for specific curves to more easily hide the clutter.
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: chuck roaster on June 28, 2018, 02:38:29 PM
Hi Danny, keep up the great work.  I'm still learning the app and finding my way.  I came here searching for ROR to see if you supported that and now I see you do, can you point me to a video or documentation you have on how to set or log an ROR in my workflow?  I only say "set" in the event that is how you've implemented it.  Logged ROR with temperature increase per minute would be most awesome.  But knowing you have already thought this through, I am more curious about how to use it -- the rookie I am with your software.  :-)

thanks again, and thanks for giving us Roastmaster
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: Danny Hall on June 28, 2018, 06:31:57 PM
Hi Chuck - thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you're learning and enjoying!!

I honestly cannot remember if I've talked much about delta curves in the more recent "Roasting with Roastmaster" videos in the screencasts library ( I know I covered them in the old screencasts, but much has changed in Roastmaster since then.

The basics are this: Roastmaster shows delta curves for every reading curve being displayed in the Analyzer based on the setting in Preferences called Roast Analyzer -> Delta Curves. If that is on, you'll see a delta curve for each reading curve. If it's off, none will be displayed by default.

You can toggle delta curves off and on individually in the Analyzer by two-finger tapping to invoke the Curve list. Long tap on a curve to toggle it to the opposite state., e.g. if the preference setting is On, long-tapping a curve will turn the delta curve off for that curve, and "Delta Off" will be displayed for that curve. The inverse, of course, is true, with "Delta On" being displayed.

I think though, based on your post, that Delta Intervals may be helpful to you. You can define 3 separate delta intervals to track in the Roast Analyzer. Enter the value in seconds that you want reported, e.g. 60 for 1 minute. These three delta values are displayed at the top of the analyzer whenever a reading curve is selected. By default, they report the real-time live values of the probes, accurate to 1/2 second. If you select a node earlier in the curve, though, they report the delta at that moment based on the logged data.

The best workflow to utilize this information, is by constructing your Profiles with "Reference Curves", and using the analyzer in "Profile Targeting Mode". It's easy to see the current Delta information, then tap a close node on a Profile reference curve to see the reference delta information.

I talk about building profiles in Screencast Part 2 and expand on that more in parts 5 and 6.

Let me know if this helps you, or if you have any other questions!
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: chuck roaster on June 28, 2018, 09:35:09 PM
Funny, all new software UI is like this at the user end !! :o  !!  but I will read this carefully about 5 times and pour myself into it.  And that's coming from a certified Adobe expert who teaches that software, right?  All said, I know it will make sense if I find the words and icons and just take a step at a time.  After all, I've learned my roaster without software, this is the next step for me.

Thanks for going so deep into that answer, so I can use it as steps to understand how I want to create an ROR workflow.  It's the one thing I'm missing.  My ThermaBlueQ is coming, I hope to be really getting specific soon.  I've gotten high reviews so far, manually, on my Artisan 6M, but Roastmaster should up my game.  Thanks!!
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: chuck roaster on June 28, 2018, 11:26:09 PM
All righty!  I'm coming along, getting a better understanding for what the icons mean and how to interact with Roastmaster. 

In screencast 5 where I see a smooth ROR curve, is that coming from a probe or did you input a control curve with manual input -- cannot quite tell how you got that logging.

Without my ThermaBlue just yet, I'm in practice mode and creating nodes and dropping temps in manually to emulate a real roasting.  Can you look at my screen capture and see if I have understood this right?  And can you tell me if you have an ROR Curve from a live probe?  If yes, is it nothing more than a control curve reading from the probe?  (setup)
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: Danny Hall on June 29, 2018, 02:19:30 PM
Just to make the distinction...the blue curve in your screenshot is a control curve. These graph as stair-steps in their own section of the Analyzer, and are meant to correspond to machine control settings, e.g. gas flow, electric current, damper and fan settings, etc. The green curve is a reading curve - these represent (at the moment) just temperature readings. Reading curves can show a Delta (Rate of Rise) curve, while Control curves cannot.

In the Roasting with Roastmaster screencast 5, I've got two Reading curves bound to probes. The green Bean Temp curve, of course, is self-explanatory. The blue curve, though, is a probe in the exhaust vent. That serves as an indicator in my profiles of how I usually work the damper at certain points of a roast. The same things could be achieved with a Control curve, similar to the blue curve in your screenshot - wherein I'd input nodes whenever I change the damper setting. Kind of two different ways in this particular example to accomplish the same thing. I like hands-off roasting, so I don't work with control curves myself.

But, to illustrate how the main curve and its corresponding Delta (Rate of Rise) curve work together, the top green curve in the video is the actual Reading curve consisting of temps - a series of nodes that are read by the probe. The very bottom green curve that's more squiggly is its corresponding Delta (Rate of Rise) curve. It simply shows a graphical and relative value of how quickly the main Reading curve is rising at each point in the roast.

The more data points the curve has, the smoother they both will be. Programatically, I cannot accurately employ any type of graphical curve-smoothing for Reading curves in cases of manual data entry, because that would be guesswork on my part as to how faithful the user is in entering nodes. So, they remain linear from node to node (notice how your green curve looks more like a dot-to-dot drawing). When you get your probes set up, you'll see them smooth out. I'd personally advise shielded (ungrounded) probes - they provide the smoothest transitions in curves. But, either style would word.

In the current version of Roastmaster, you cannot bind a probe to a control curve. That will change soon - lots of expansions are coming in the arena of profiling and data logging. Until then, though, Control curves (the stair-stepped curves) are limited to manual data entry.

Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: chuck roaster on June 29, 2018, 02:31:46 PM
Makes perfect sense.  So I need to grab one more probe for the ThermaBlue and, in the software, call that ROR, make it a reading curve. 

Here's what doesn't make sense:  If the first probe (called Bean Temp) is a reading curve and reports that data, how does a second probe know to report ROR?  Is there another choice I make to distinguish that reading probe?
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: chuck roaster on June 29, 2018, 03:40:21 PM
Danny, no need to reply.  I just re-read your post and saw you have a second probe in your exhaust vent to create an ROR curve.  That's the trick -- location, not software setup.  On my Artisan 6M, I need to make a best guess to where I want to afix that second probe. 
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: Danny Hall on June 29, 2018, 07:53:44 PM just need one single curve to see both A) it's logged temperatures, and B) a Delta representation of the rate of rise at each moment of the primary curve

A Reading curve and its corresponding Delta representation curve are the same curve - flip sides of the same coin if you will. Roastmaster graphs the logged temperatures of the Reading curve - this is the curve itself. You can interact with this - tap it to select it, edit the nodes, etc. The Delta curve representation is not a separate curve that you define - it is simply displayed in tandem with the main Reading curve if your preferences are set to display it. You cannot interact with the Delta representation of the curve - it is locked to the "real" curve.

And, you don't need to use two curves - most roasters only roast with a Bean Mass temp curve. I show two simply because those screencasts are taken from my real roasts, and I use two. You can use however many you want, based on how many your probe hardware is capable of reading. For each of those Reading curves, you'll see the real temperatures, and a corresponding Delta representation of the rate of rise at each point in the main curve.
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: chuck roaster on June 29, 2018, 08:36:14 PM
OK !   Let me see if I got this right:

1) I dont need a second probe
2) In the Data Curves of the roast, I just plug in my name "Bean Temp" and choose Reading Curve.  Then bind to my probe.
3) It's automatic from there?  Roastmaster will mirror my Bean Temp curve to the bottom ROR curve data like yours?  (without my ThermaBlue, I'm just wildly picturing it -- so your steps mean everything if I have this right)

thanks, Danny
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: Danny Hall on June 29, 2018, 09:11:59 PM
Yep. Delta curves are always graphed in the same color as the main part of the curve. Whether or not the Delta representation is shown is controlled in Preferences, as I outline earlier. Yours is set to can see the delta curve on the screenshot you posted. I've annotated it with labels (attached).
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: chuck roaster on June 29, 2018, 09:51:51 PM
I see now.  It was automatically generated.  Looking forward to getting my Therma.

Danny, as I have already ordered that 2nd probe, should I mount it in mid-air above where the beans are flying?  would that count more toward an ET?  On my Artisan, it has an air temp LED readout already, where the air is being pushed upward into the chrome roasting bin. Just wondering now, since it would appear I dont need the second probe for ROR.

Thanks for all your help and replies.
Title: Re: ROR Curve
Post by: Danny Hall on June 30, 2018, 01:21:04 AM
I'm sorry, I'm not going to be much help there. I've never roasted on an Artisan before. But, I can tell you that the configuration of Bean Temp, Environmental Temp, and Max Environment Temp are very common configurations in the coffee world. Lots of folks like to track all three - they can tell you different things about the state of the roast, thermal charge of the roaster, etc. If you don't mount it right away, I'd hang onto it - you might find a need in the future.